Captain Bligh writes:
No absolutes?
There are absolutes, perhaps not to the physics world, but to the philosophic world, which are not too far apart when it comes to these universal topics, such as space, motion, and time.
[GB: George, thanks so much for another of your critical comments. I am sure they will be useful to many folks even though I have a lot of problems with them (see
below).]
E.g.:
1) I can see that I am absolutely present as a finite form as part of an
infinite world.
[GB: What means
“absolutely present”? My grammar checker says to remove “absolutely” as being
redundant. I tend to agree. One is either present or not.]
2) I am pretty absolutely certain you are too.
[GB: Sounds like you are
not all that certain.]
3) There is an absolute, but infinite universe, philosophically and I think
physics understands this almost to a person.
[GB: Why do you need to
add “absolute” to your description of the universe? Sorry, but the current
understanding of physics is that the universe is finite (almost to a person).
That is, after all, what cosmogony is all about. A universe with a beginning,
especially one that explodes from a central point, must be finite.]
4) There is an infinite energy occupying space. It seems doubtful that space and
energy can exist without the other, but I don't know what others say about this
absolute.
[GB: Sorry, but there is
no “energy” occupying space. Energy neither exists nor occurs. Energy is a
calculation describing the motion of matter. Perhaps you are thinking of the Fourth
Assumption of Science, inseparability (Just as there is no
motion without matter, so there is no matter without motion). In Infinite
Universe Theory, we do indeed assume that matter in motion is infinite, but we
would never call that an absolute. While we assume inseparability and infinity
to be true, we could never provide absolute proof of that assertion.]
5) Most importantly, to my physics, is the absolute now, by which I mean the
instantaneous change occurring in an infinite universal energy that seems to be
in a wave type form. No past, no future, exist only the movable Now, if you
know what I mean.
[GB: Sorry, but I would
never know what you mean by that. We use the terms, past, present, and future
to describe time, which is the motion of matter. There is no such motion that
could be “instantaneous change,” as I pointed out in a comment about
catastrophe theory that I published long ago.[1]
Here is an example of what I mean by the slogan “time is motion” with reference
to past, present, and future: Consider a baseball being pitched toward a
batter. The ball exists, of course, throughout its travel. As it travels toward
the batter, its former path describes its past and its still-to-be-realized
path describes its future. At no point does the ball have an “absolute now” or
experience an “instantaneous change”. Any
“now” that we can use to describe the ball after we catch it is certainly not
absolute either, for all microcosms are continually in motion per inseparability.
No matter how tightly we hold the ball, the submicrocosms within and
supermicrocosms without will be in continuous motion. That is why “now” is always
relative, never absolute, as you seem to realize with your appellation of
“movable” to your absolute Now. It is why no one can ever give a correct answer
to the question: How old are you now? No matter what your answer, you always
will be older by at least a few microseconds.
Your
statement about change in “an infinite universal energy that seems to be in a
wave type form” is worthy of the faithful followers of Einstein. Perhaps you
mean that all microcosms are moving within an aether medium that is subject to
wave motion produced by still other microcosms.]
There are lots of
absolutes philosophically speaking and the absolute now contains everything
else. The everything else is of course all relative to each and every other
thing.
[GB: Metaphysics is “that
which goes beyond physics”. As I have maintained throughout my work, there are
two opposing types of metaphysics: determinism and
indeterminism. To be “consistent with physics,” you would have to use the
deterministic assumptions I included in "The Ten Assumptions of Science".]
George
[GB: George:
Remember that absolutism is
the indeterministic opposite of the Ninth Assumption of Science, relativism
(All things have characteristics that make them similar to all other
things as well as characteristics that make them dissimilar to all other
things). With each microcosm in the infinite universe moving with respect to
all other microcosms, I really do not see any “absolutism” being possible. In "Universal
Cycle Theory” Steve and I pointed out that, in the infinite universe there are
no true constants. Per the Second
Assumption of Science, causality
(All effects have an infinite number of material causes), any measurement we
can make will always entail a plus or minus. Pi, for instance, is 3.1416…
followed by a non-repeating infinite series of numbers. By 2011, Pi had been
calculated to 10 trillion digits with no end in site.
Newton and other indeterminists have sought some
absolute reference frame, but that is not possible in an infinite universe
guided by the Fourth Assumption of Science, inseparability (Just as there is no motion
without matter, so there is no matter without motion). In the First Law of
Motion, I think that Newton had to invent absolute space because he knew that
an object moving in perfectly empty space could not be considered moving at all
unless there was a referent.
Of course, when we think about the First Law, we are really putting ourselves
in the place of the referent.
That brings us to your declaration that absolutes
are “perhaps not” in the physics world, but that there certainly are absolutes in
philosophy. Sorry, George, but Infinite Universe Theory does not allow for that
either. If that were true, then there would be no possible debate concerning
the things considered “absolute”. You may be absolutely sure that you and I
exist, but not everyone believes that. I once met a faithful follower of
Einstein who claimed that I did not exist, but that the event of my birth did.
Talk about the relativist’s objectification of time! Immaterialists would
disagree with you about the nature of existence. To this day, many of them
still claim that consciousness creates existence and not the other way around.
There is a sucker born every minute. When that
little guy puts that blanket over his head, he makes the entire universe
disappear—so he thinks. In due time he will realize that the universe is
material and that it will continue to exist no matter what he does. The
philosophical struggle between determinism and indeterminism allows no room for
absolutes no matter how much the opposing sides scream and shout. That is why I
called them "The Ten Assumptions of Science" and not the ten
absolutes of science. They can never be proven beyond a shred of an
indeterminist’s doubt. All we can do is to assume them and get on with our
work.
I
sympathize with your search for philosophical absolutes. In the infinite
universe, we are continually faced with uncertainty (It is
impossible to know everything about anything, but it is possible to know more
about anything.), an assumption that is by no means certain itself. With everything
in the infinite universe moving from place-to-place in a seeming blur of
events, we would like to grab unto a saving raft. Idealists of every stripe are
comforted by their holy books filled with what they think are absolutes. Many a
student of philosophy began that pursuit in the search for certainty. With
experience, however, we finally realize that absolutes are not to be found
anywhere. An imagined absolute, like the concept of free will itself, is
worthless in scientific philosophy. In science, the closest we ever get to
absolutes involves the supposition that each of our fundamental assumptions is
true. Nonetheless, the purpose of those fundamental assumptions is not to be
absolutely true, but to be useful.
Usefulness also is the primary criterion when
we use idealism in science. Thus, we can imagine “perfectly solid matter” and
“perfectly empty space” as the endpoints of a continuum of real things. We know
that those ideal endpoints can never really exist, but find them useful for
understanding the reality in between. All scientific models are like that. All
are abstractions on reality, for we can never include the infinite detail that
is inherent in even one microcosm. The only thing we lose by eschewing
absolutism and claims of perfection in theory is the naïve hubris of classical
mechanism.]
[1]Borchardt,
Glenn, 1978, Catastrophe theory: Application to the Permian mass extinction:
Comments and reply: Geology, v. 6, p. 453-454. (
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221706038_Catastrophe_theory_Application_to_the_Permian_mass_extinction_Comments_and_reply )
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221706038_Catastrophe_theory_Application_to_the_Permian_mass_extinction_Comments_and_reply )
7 comments:
Yes, one is either present or not. Absolutely. Isn't it wonderful to have some logical statements that are absolutely true? :)
You object to my using absolute in certain ways, but allow the ideas of microcosm and macrocosm. That is a double standard. Analogies and metaphors ARE understood for what they are. They help us simply in order to remember relationships of ideas. Energy is a metaphor like microcosm.
Re: 5 absolute now. My thought experiment. Freeze the universe. No motion. No time. That is the frozen "State" of now. That's what I mean. Yes, it is another metaphor or analogy. That state, were it to exist would be an absolute now.
Yes, space is absolute to me. It has to be absolutely real and present. It allows room for cause and effect to operate. Although infinite, we could pick an arbitrary point in space and say THAT POINT is our referent. We could calculate all accelerated fields relative to that point and get rid of Einstein's lack of simultaneity. Ref: Tom E. Phipps Jr, and Al Kelly.
Finally, aren't determinism and materialisms also abstractions? Isn't everything? Isn’t that Nietzsche's point?
George Written after the material below. I responded to problems of "absolute" before reading the latest blog and inserting here, above.
George
PS I will try to learn how to pick out paragraphs or numbers to make sure we are on the same page. Maybe you could do that for us. A few more ways to relate to the exact point in the previous blog.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, one is either present or not. Absolutely. Isn't it wonderful to have some logical statements that are absolutely true? :)
You object to my using absolute in certain ways, but allow the ideas of microcosm and macrocosm. That is a double standard. Analogies and metaphors ARE understood for what they are. They help us simply in order to remember relationships of ideas. Energy is a metaphor like microcosm.
Re: 5 absolute now. My thought experiment. Freeze the universe. No motion. No time. That is the frozen "State" of now. That's what I mean. Yes, it is another metaphor or analogy. That state, were it to exist would be an absolute now.
Yes, space is absolute to me. It has to be absolutely real and present. It allows room for cause and effect to operate. Although infinite, we could pick an arbitrary point in space and say THAT POINT is our referent. We could calculate all accelerated fields relative to that point and get rid of Einstein's lack of simultaneity. Ref: Tom E. Phipps Jr, and Al Kelly.
Finally, aren't determinism and materialisms also abstractions? Isn't everything? Isn’t that Nietzsche's point?
George Written after the material below. I responded to problems of "absolute" before reading the latest blog and inserting here, above.
George
PS I will try to learn how to pick out paragraphs or numbers to make sure we are on the same page. Maybe you could do that for us. A few more ways to relate to the exact point in the previous blog.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Preface: The SWV tends to be critical of the use of the word absolute, in my view, therefore a reply.
Regarding the word absolute:
1) Some, because of the concept of infinite, refuse to consider anything at all, finite in absolute terms. Everything can be divided ad infinitum.
2) Because the universe is one of these things that is infinite they avoid the word, absolute.
Understandable, but
3) This is a confusion of the meaning of the word infinite (unending and not finite) to mean that a whole is a particular thing, implying finite.
4) I am not so sure about others but when I use the word absolute, it stands in for the idea of totality. Totally whole, absolutely total. Everything. The whole enchilada. Absolutely.
5) Yes, totality, in this sense means "happens to be", and is infinite, but we still need another concept to stand in for it. That would be "total", "whole", or "absolute."
Absolute in the sense of the total summation for anything. E.g. the universe. Yourself, as the total you, or absolute self.
6) Because others have used the word absolute in a metaphysical way or "spiritual" way does not imply that I use the word in that sense. I do not or should not capitalize the word (Absolute), so as not to mislead. I take back the word, uncapitalized, from the idealists, because I am a modern realist.
7) Everything and nothing. Wholes and parts. Universals and particulars. General and specific. These have been philosophical problems for millennia. Absolute can be used as a term to represent a state of everything. At any one moment the state of the universe is absolute. It is absolutely in that state. Granted we are talking about an indivisible time interval, but since the universe exists throughout any time interval it can be considered to exist in the "infinitesimal" moment I am speaking of. Maybe one has to be a deterministic materialist to have resonance with this idea. I don't know for sure. I am not absolute about this point. :)
An idealist would think I am speaking of something perhaps outside of time, if that were possible. Some cannot realize that the universe is always existing. It is an absolute thing.
George May 23 2014
Re: Blog 2014521
There is noting incoherent about something having more than one perspective to it. Matter of fact that is part of objectivity. Relativity is another concept, it means related to. All things in the universe are inter-related.
As for Finite Particle, that is incoherent with modern physics. There is not such thing as a finite particle, at least not at a foundational level. Yes, we can identify finite things as humans but that is our phenomenal view of nature, not nature as it really is. Echoes of Kant, here. I keep advocating a wave like energy universe, particles are contingent. I guess waves are contingent. Everything is contingent on its past history or "cause." That's materialistic determinism to me.
BW sounds like Parmenides with this all space occupied idea. Of course it is all occupied. I suggest that we use the word "field" to represent a way of presenting absolute wave energy, whatever that is. That is just our current model.
I don't know how, personally to conceive of space as empty. There is no such thing. All space is field energy. Yes, I know physicists treat energy as some calculation or quantity, but it certainly is a real thing, whatever it is.
Re: Eight assumption. Infinity. I use the something from nothing argument. That IS impossible. Logically. Proving it is impossible, but Infinite "space" and "time" are absolutes, by necessity. Ex Nihilo Nihil.
I point out that it is also impossible to get outside an infinite universe to examine it from additional perspectives. We are stuck with not knowing it all.
I apologize. Let me start all over.
George May 23 2014
Re: Blog 2014521
There is noting incoherent about something having more than one perspective to it. Matter of fact that is part of objectivity. Relativity is another concept, it means related to. All things in the universe are inter-related.
As for Finite Particle, that is incoherent with modern physics. There is not such thing as a finite particle, at least not at a foundational level. Yes, we can identify finite things as humans but that is our phenomenal view of nature, not nature as it really is. Echoes of Kant, here. I keep advocating a wave like energy universe, particles are contingent. I guess waves are contingent. Everything is contingent on its past history or "cause." That's materialistic determinism to me.
BW sounds like Parmenides with this all space occupied idea. Of course it is all occupied. I suggest that we use the word "field" to represent a way of presenting absolute wave energy, whatever that is. That is just our current model.
I don't know how, personally to conceive of space as empty. There is no such thing. All space is field energy. Yes, I know physicists treat energy as some calculation or quantity, but it certainly is a real thing, whatever it is.
Re: Eight assumption. Infinity. I use the something from nothing argument. That IS impossible. Logically. Proving it is impossible, but Infinite "space" and "time" are absolutes, by necessity. Ex Nihilo Nihil.
I point out that it is also impossible to get outside an infinite universe to examine it from additional perspectives. We are stuck with not knowing it all.
part 1
part 2
Yes, one is either present or not. Absolutely. Isn't it wonderful to have some logical statements that are absolutely true? :)
You object to my using absolute in certain ways, but allow the ideas of microcosm and macrocosm. That is a double standard. Analogies and metaphors ARE understood for what they are. They help us simply in order to remember relationships of ideas. Energy is a metaphor like microcosm.
Re: 5 absolute now. My thought experiment. Freeze the universe. No motion. No time. That is the frozen "State" of now. That's what I mean. Yes, it is another metaphor or analogy. That state, were it to exist would be an absolute now.
Yes, space is absolute to me. It has to be absolutely real and present. It allows room for cause and effect to operate. Although infinite, we could pick an arbitrary point in space and say THAT POINT is our referent. We could calculate all accelerated fields relative to that point and get rid of Einstein's lack of simultaneity. Ref: Tom E. Phipps Jr, and Al Kelly.
Finally, aren't determinism and materialisms also abstractions? Isn't everything? Isn’t that Nietzsche's point?
George Written after the material below. I responded to problems of "absolute" before reading the latest blog and inserting here, above.
George
PS I will try to learn how to pick out paragraphs or numbers to make sure we are on the same page. Maybe you could do that for us. A few more ways to relate to the exact point in the previous blog.
part 3
Preface: The SWV tends to be critical of the use of the word absolute, in my view, therefore a reply.
Regarding the word absolute:
1) Some, because of the concept of infinite, refuse to consider anything at all, finite in absolute terms. Everything can be divided ad infinitum.
2) Because the universe is one of these things that is infinite they avoid the word, absolute.
Understandable, but
3) This is a confusion of the meaning of the word infinite (unending and not finite) to mean that a whole is a particular thing, implying finite.
4) I am not so sure about others but when I use the word absolute, it stands in for the idea of totality. Totally whole, absolutely total. Everything. The whole enchilada. Absolutely.
5) Yes, totality, in this sense means "happens to be", and is infinite, but we still need another concept to stand in for it. That would be "total", "whole", or "absolute."
Absolute in the sense of the total summation for anything. E.g. the universe. Yourself, as the total you, or absolute self.
6) Because others have used the word absolute in a metaphysical way or "spiritual" way does not imply that I use the word in that sense. I do not or should not capitalize the word (Absolute), so as not to mislead. I take back the word, uncapitalized, from the idealists, because I am a modern realist.
7) Everything and nothing. Wholes and parts. Universals and particulars. General and specific. These have been philosophical problems for millennia. Absolute can be used as a term to represent a state of everything. At any one moment the state of the universe is absolute. It is absolutely in that state. Granted we are talking about an indivisible time interval, but since the universe exists throughout any time interval it can be considered to exist in the "infinitesimal" moment I am speaking of. Maybe one has to be a deterministic materialist to have resonance with this idea. I don't know for sure. I am not absolute about this point. :)
An idealist would think I am speaking of something perhaps outside of time, if that were possible. Some cannot realize that the universe is always existing. It is an absolute thing.
George May 23 2014
[George:
You are getting there, but are still hung up on energy: “All space is field energy. Yes, I know physicists treat energy as some calculation or quantity, but it certainly is a real thing, whatever it is.” As I have said a thousand times, energy is not a thing. It is a description of things in motion. It is not true that “all space is field energy.” Instead, all space is filled with microcosms (things) in motion. “Field energy” is used by indeterminists who, being immaterialists like Einstein, refrained from considering the constituents of space to be material. That is why energy can never be defined adequately as anything other than an equation and why you must say “whatever it is” and why you have to append “certainly” to your idea that energy is a thing.
Maybe this example will help: When water (a microcosm) rushes (the motion of the microcosm) down the stream, we can perform a calculation describing that process. We may say that the water has “energy,” but all it really has is motion. This is true for all energy calculations, except those involving aether. If we deny the existence of aether, we have no choice but to describe its mysterious actions by what then becomes an equally mysterious term, “energy.” We would have to do that for water as well, if we decided to become a “water denier.”
George, maybe you have to reread "The Ten Assumptions of Science." This was covered under the Fourth Assumption of Science, inseparability (Just as there is no motion without matter, so there is no matter without motion).]
The whole indeterministic assumption of absolutism was covered under the Ninth Assumption of Science, relativism (All things have characteristics that make them similar to all other things as well as characteristics that make them dissimilar to all other things). I think you need to examine your indeterministic need for absolutes: “Infinite "space" and "time" are absolutes.” Try to banish that word from your vocabulary. It is useless. You can scream and shout and proclaim “absolutivity” all you want, but infinity (The universe is infinite, both in the microcosmic and macrocosmic directions) will still be an assumption. Absolutism is a contradiction of the Third Assumption of Science, uncertainty (It is impossible to know everything about anything, but it is possible to know more about anything), which you must ascribe to with your statement that: “We are stuck with not knowing it all.”]
Post a Comment